UpTrust

Ancestral trauma/patterns is real? bullshit?

I've been working with a healer the past year that holds a more ancestral trauma frame being transmitted down the line. To believe such a thing, you kinda have to believe there's either (A) a non-material way of transmitting such trauma across generations or (B) we simply don't...

psychology

epigenetics

trauma studies

is "The Body Keeps the Score" misleading, or even flat out disproven? I think this is an extremely important topic. So many people's ideas about trauma rest on the writings of Peter Levine and Bessel van der Kolk (The Body Keeps the Score author)—but what if they just don't hold up to scrutiny, and the "science" they reference doesn't exist or is misinterpretted? This substack article is provacative, but I like it because it's someone who might be coded "left" or "hippie" by a bunch of other beliefs.. Admittedly, I skimmed, and I got recommended it because i have my own views about the trauma mindset's shadows, but would be super curious people's thoughts.

here are some juicy tidbits:

much of this science is uncertain at best, and in some cases was discredited decades ago.

polyvagal theory, which van der Kolk heavily references, has been disproven. Paul Grossman, from Universitätsspital Basel in Switzerland, writes in this paper that the basic premises of polyvagal theory “have been shown to be either untenable or highly implausible based on the available scientific literature.”

I wish we talked more about the legions of people walking around who have trauma histories who have managed to lead healthy, happy lives. In my first few years as a therapist, I noticed that contrary to the trauma narratives we see reflected in pop culture, people who have traumatic experiences are often not irrevocably damaged by it, but instead use internal and external resources to overcome it. They form healthy relationships, have meaningful careers, and raise loving families. These trauma survivors are not unicorns.

and

Part two debunked Peter Levine’s claims that trauma is stored in your body and needs to be released.

"Levine makes claims that are not supported by research and makes promises he cannot keep. He has contributed to fears that everyone has the residue of trauma lurking in their bodies by broadening the definition of trauma until it applies to any stressful experience. By exaggerating the degree to which traumatic memories are repressed, Levine (along with van der Kolk) has promoted the widespread fear that hidden trauma is causing somatic symptoms, even for those who have no memories of unpleasant experiences.

jordanSA•...

thanks, good to hear this. I hope questioning the explanatory framework around this stuff doesn't feel invalidating of powerful healing experiences you've had, or the value you and others are getting from practice inspired by these writings and concepts....

is "The Body Keeps the Score" misleading, or even flat out disproven? I think this is an extremely important topic. So many people's ideas about trauma rest on the writings of Peter Levine and Bessel van der Kolk (The Body Keeps the Score author)—but what if they just don't hold up to scrutiny, and the "science" they reference doesn't exist or is misinterpretted? This substack article is provacative, but I like it because it's someone who might be coded "left" or "hippie" by a bunch of other beliefs.. Admittedly, I skimmed, and I got recommended it because i have my own views about the trauma mindset's shadows, but would be super curious people's thoughts.

here are some juicy tidbits:

much of this science is uncertain at best, and in some cases was discredited decades ago.

polyvagal theory, which van der Kolk heavily references, has been disproven. Paul Grossman, from Universitätsspital Basel in Switzerland, writes in this paper that the basic premises of polyvagal theory “have been shown to be either untenable or highly implausible based on the available scientific literature.”

I wish we talked more about the legions of people walking around who have trauma histories who have managed to lead healthy, happy lives. In my first few years as a therapist, I noticed that contrary to the trauma narratives we see reflected in pop culture, people who have traumatic experiences are often not irrevocably damaged by it, but instead use internal and external resources to overcome it. They form healthy relationships, have meaningful careers, and raise loving families. These trauma survivors are not unicorns.

and

Part two debunked Peter Levine’s claims that trauma is stored in your body and needs to be released.

"Levine makes claims that are not supported by research and makes promises he cannot keep. He has contributed to fears that everyone has the residue of trauma lurking in their bodies by broadening the definition of trauma until it applies to any stressful experience. By exaggerating the degree to which traumatic memories are repressed, Levine (along with van der Kolk) has promoted the widespread fear that hidden trauma is causing somatic symptoms, even for those who have no memories of unpleasant experiences.

Tomo•...

I've not really read the mentioned book very thoroughly, but I'm familiar with the ideas these authors share. I've had chronic pains in my body that when worked on and with (by varying traditional and new-age methods), have burst into imagery, thoughts and emotion that form a...

psychology

health and wellness

trauma studies

is "The Body Keeps the Score" misleading, or even flat out disproven? I think this is an extremely important topic. So many people's ideas about trauma rest on the writings of Peter Levine and Bessel van der Kolk (The Body Keeps the Score author)—but what if they just don't hold up to scrutiny, and the "science" they reference doesn't exist or is misinterpretted? This substack article is provacative, but I like it because it's someone who might be coded "left" or "hippie" by a bunch of other beliefs.. Admittedly, I skimmed, and I got recommended it because i have my own views about the trauma mindset's shadows, but would be super curious people's thoughts.

here are some juicy tidbits:

much of this science is uncertain at best, and in some cases was discredited decades ago.

polyvagal theory, which van der Kolk heavily references, has been disproven. Paul Grossman, from Universitätsspital Basel in Switzerland, writes in this paper that the basic premises of polyvagal theory “have been shown to be either untenable or highly implausible based on the available scientific literature.”

I wish we talked more about the legions of people walking around who have trauma histories who have managed to lead healthy, happy lives. In my first few years as a therapist, I noticed that contrary to the trauma narratives we see reflected in pop culture, people who have traumatic experiences are often not irrevocably damaged by it, but instead use internal and external resources to overcome it. They form healthy relationships, have meaningful careers, and raise loving families. These trauma survivors are not unicorns.

and

Part two debunked Peter Levine’s claims that trauma is stored in your body and needs to be released.

"Levine makes claims that are not supported by research and makes promises he cannot keep. He has contributed to fears that everyone has the residue of trauma lurking in their bodies by broadening the definition of trauma until it applies to any stressful experience. By exaggerating the degree to which traumatic memories are repressed, Levine (along with van der Kolk) has promoted the widespread fear that hidden trauma is causing somatic symptoms, even for those who have no memories of unpleasant experiences.

daveSA•...

I liked this Slate Star Codex review of the book for the kinds of things it could have done better. I mostly remember the review because of this part, late in the review: [Update, written a few weeks after the rest of this post: maybe it is all wizardry....

psychology

literature

trauma studies

jordanSA•...

is "The Body Keeps the Score" misleading, or even flat out disproven?

I think this is an extremely important topic. So many people's ideas about trauma rest on the writings of Peter Levine and Bessel van der Kolk (The Body Keeps the Score author)—but what if they just don't hold up to scrutiny, and the "science" they reference doesn't exist or is...

Grief work is essential to the adult psyche. I just finished a three day weekend grief ceremony and been practicing grief as a thing this past year.

Obviously there's the failure case where you can get stuck in a loop around your trauma and grief. But, the opposite failure case also exists that most people are repressing their feelings and thereby getting stuck in their head. I'd argue a lot of the transhumanist folks are in this camp.

But an actual ceremony where everyone is supported, witnessed, and held in their grief and rage is a beautiful thing. In my experience, there's a certain half-life to each wave of grief and coming out of it, I'm more capable of taking in joy and being resourced. To the extent, a person can actually inhabit great grief seems to be correlated strongly to how much they can inhabit great joy and power with integrity. There isn't so much of a shadow of the psyche being terrified of meeting pains it cannot deal with and subtly using power to avoid them or fill them.

Seems like a huge missing piece in culture between all the yoga, fitness, authentic relating, and what not. To actually turn towards the broken places and let the body grieve. Many of the times, the grief isn't even about a lost loved one but just grieving the Earth, grieving old disappointments, grieving the suffering of loved ones, grieving ancient wounds that might not even be mine.

david•...

How timely?! I have been studying collective and ancestral trauma with Thomas Hubl for the past 8 months, and I'm uncovering a woundedness that lives in me through my culture that I wasn't even consciously aware of previously....

Listen: John Richards on Growing Up (35 min), Integration (40 min) 🎧 . I recently met John and have been delighted by the rare combination of insight and humility, depth and simplicity, in his presentation of the world. He's also grounded in decades of crisis intervention and working with homeless youth.

The first audio on this soundcloud is a great introduction to “Growing Up” that is both more simple than most models (only 4 stages) and draws from Piaget, James Fowler, and M Scott Peck, so it’s got a different flavor than the usual Wilberian, Spiral Dynamics, Loevinger tradition. The second has some unique ideas and speaks about the modern world's lack of initiation. Both were rich to me, and I hope you enjoy them.

#TTT

fra•...

I have listened to the first of the two tracks. I did not like it but thanks for sharing. Not a word on childhood trauma, no understanding of the natural path we are designed for as children. A magical reassuring belief that we are on a path of spiritual evolution....